All of a sudden, a lot of us are having conversations over Zoom or FaceTime. What advice do you have for better conversations in this socially distant moment?

And I should say that I'm also simultaneously reading your book on Do Nothing, which is revelatory and how we work in all those kinds of things. So, I know this is another era of your research, but there's some time for just, we have a conversation, there's no purpose, we're just talking. So how do you recommend people start to think about their business conversations and things? This is a chance for us to connect with people that we might not otherwise have met and start thinking about these as a chance for enjoyment versus just, we've got to get through this and work together. Curiosity and humility — both are necessary for approaching other people in a way that builds connection.Read this fascinating book and you'll become a better listener, a better conversationalist and better company' Adam Kay'A brilliant book on the art of conversation' Matt Haig'A compulsory book for these divided times' Sathnam Sanghera'An intriguing exploration of the importance of a proper chinwag' Sara Cox'A terrific book from a terrific broadcaster. Absolutely. And just building on your point there Richard my, my experience in managing teams and speaking to individuals that from an employee perspective, so that individual who’s coming to that performance management conversation, there needs to be clear, concise messaging and honesty in those conversations. I mean, there may be a time that the employees actually may feel a bit nervous, but the thought of upon was management conversation is quite an emotive subject sometimes, especially if there is a culture within the business that has that sort of anxiety around those types of conversations. And having the message clearly delivered without the the fluffy added bit really helps for understanding of what’s required. And and I think is fundamental with with performance management conversations at all levels. Really. You ask them questions; they know the answer to about something they care about. And they're never going to not have an answer to what is your hometown like. They're never not going to care what their hometown is like, and that relieves the pressure from you for coming up to something to say. And just to take this one step further, one of the biggest issues for leaders is the expertise trap. The idea that as soon as you become a leader, or as soon as you become an expert, you're learning curve either flattens out at best or falls straight off a cliff. And that's because as soon as you begin to think that you know, maybe you just know a lot, but usually it's that you know more than other people. Then you're going to approach all your team members as though you are there to tell them to impart wisdom and to guide them and manage them as opposed to coach. And so, the way to prevent people from thinking they have to agree with you is by stepping out and saying, "Look, I'm counting on you guys to help me understand this. We all are counting on each other, and if I say the wrong thing, I want you to tell me because I want to get better. And we at this company are invested in growth mindset. We have no interest in being fixed in any way, shape, or form. And that means we're going to need to correct each other and rely on each other, and when you know something and I said the wrong thing, tell me." One way Heyman likes to promote good conversations is to seed them. This is similar to what she does to start a discussion in class, asking people to come prepared to discuss a specific memory, for example.

Wow. So, one of the questions I also have is when we do think about topics at work, there are a number of things right now that feel really explosive around politics, and even things that you would've once thought are very neutral now might feel kind of loaded. Do you think there are topics that should be off limits at work? This might seem like a no-brainer, but if you want to have better conversations, put your phone away. The survival instinct is the basic instinct in humans and animals to do something in a dangerous situation that will keep them alive.Absolutely. So that was probably a little bit of a curveball coming at you there with regards to measuring something so difficult, but I think you’re quite right, and you’ve hit the nail on the head, because it probably stems from how you recruit people in the first place, and how they come into the organisation. And whether they align to the values of an organisation, that’s probably a key thing that people should consider as early on as the recruitment stage or even setting up their strategy and people strategy. And if you've never met them before, I guarantee you there's still questions. I guarantee you that someone is wearing something interesting, has a tattoo somewhere, has an interesting job that you don't know anything about or maybe you don't realize it's interesting. I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but this is what hosts do, I always have questions. So, focus on what you want to learn.

And if people trained them that way, not only would it help because you don't ever have to ban things, but also improving people's conversational skills has just a cascade of benefits, not least of which all of these efforts to improve diversity and inclusion is really just an effort to try to make people work better as team members. When you see a true master of verbal communication, remember that these are learned behaviours, not something innate which you are either born with or not. Which means not only can we become more effective communicators if we choose but that we should not let those who do not employ them off the hook when there is a better alternative." Human beings are group thinkers. We are a hive mind. That is how we do our best thinking. And yet, leaders have this tendency to narrow and narrow and narrow the number of decision makers down. And I highly encourage you to stop doing that. You are so much more likely to make decisions that you may not like but are better and going to lead to better outcomes if you open it up. And be brave, be courageous, and open it up to everyone. The janitorial staff. I'll give you just one example from the book, The Wisdom of Crowds, and other places that cite it. At one point, the US government lost a submarine in the Atlantic Ocean, and they brought in the best experts they could find to figure out where the submarine was. Could not find it. So, one of the people on the team said, "You know what? I'm just going to take a poll." OK, Neil, I’ll reveal the correct answer later in the programme. During a long career, DJ and BBC radio presenter, Nihal Arthanayake, has had conversations with hundreds of people. Now he’s used these experiences to write a book entitled, ‘Let's Talk: How to Have Better Conversations’. Here Nihal tells another radio presenter, Michael Rosen, of BBC Radio 4’s, Word of Mouth, about the influence of his mother who also loved talking to people in her job as a nurse: So, okay, we have to be honest about a few things when it comes to leadership, and I would encourage leaders to stop being afraid of transparency. Stop making your decisions with your executive team and no others. I highly recommend a book called The Wisdom of Crowds but let me just boil this down to you. Most leaders fail, statistically speaking, the majority of leaders fail. And we need to be honest about that and understand that if you are a leader, statistically speaking, you are going to fail. So rather than constantly thinking of yourself as part of the minority who are succeeding and everybody else is the failure, start asking yourself, in what way am I failing? What am I missing? What are my blind spots? And how can I open up my decision making to the largest group of people possible? For example, we know that mergers and acquisitions are much more likely to succeed if a company makes their decisions on that issue by simply polling everyone who works for a company, double digits, more likely to be successful.

Transcript

The widespread use of any kind of text-based communication is degrading the quality of our conversations. And the reason for that is because communication is just not as effective by any measure when you're using text as it is when you're hearing the voice. I think we should really stop defaulting to video conferencing because we now know after the pandemic a lot more about Zoom and all of the others and how uniquely taxing they are for our bodies and our brains. But the voice phone call is so much more efficient, it is so much more honest. We are kinder, we are more compassionate, we are more likely to cooperate and collaborate when we are on the phone and hear somebody else's voices. There's even research that shows it is the sound of the voice itself that allows us to recognize someone else as a human being. And good conversation involves taking turns, not talking over someone – trying to silence people by talking more loudly, forcefully, and persistently than them. And frankly, the upsides to that, the way that team members often feel a lot more autonomy, they feel that they get a better work/life balance, in many cases, as long as you're not overloading them with meetings, those are nothing to be sneered at, especially in this age of burnout. So, demanding that everybody come into the office, I think in almost every case is extremely wrong-headed.